Anyone who dreams of Hillary Clinton as president is an idiot.
Anyone who dreams of a unity ticket is on the pipe.
So, where does Hillary Clinton belong?
I have two guesses. I'm figuring John Edwards for AG, so there's two places left for Hillary:
How would the Supreme Court suit her? Clinton, powerful, independent, left-leaning, would certainly be the beginning of reversing the disatrous lurch to the right of the Court. If she can be promised Justice Stevens' seat, that would be a good reason for her to drop out of the race.
How about Special Counsel to the White House? Rove's spot is extremely influential and would allow Obama access to the vast resources of the Clintonistas. Likewise, Hillary Clinton has a voice-and it should bring Hillary supporters into the Obama fold.
So, no one is talking about this-what do you all think of these moves?
“Idiot”.
“Pipe Smoker”
What are those, terms of endearment?
Frankly, I could see Hillary as President. I could even see her on the ticket with Obama. I could even see both winning.
That being said, she wouldn’t be my FIRST choice, and I think that is where everyone seems to be all discombobulated.
Each of us has our own preference as to who we’d like to see as president. Some people’s first choice is Obama, others were Edwards, or Richardson, or Gravel, and yes, Hillary.
While Obama interested me at first, my first choice was Edwards. But the media failed to follow him, and it was apparent that they were going to let his campaign die on the vine due to a lack of spotlight.
Disappointed, I started looking again at Obama. I already knew about Hillary, and frankly, I am already weary of the dynasty thing and we had already gone through sixteen years of devisive politics and Obama seemed to be something a lot different.
Sure, he was going to have to overcome some deeply-rooted prejudice from older voters who lived through the Jim Crow era and while publically eschew racial thoughts, in private still think and speak in stereotypical and racial terms. (you know what I am talking about)
When Obama talks, people want to listen. The crowds he draws are in rockstar proportions. He inspires people, he excites them. Most importantly, he isn’t part of the same small click of movers and shakers who’ve been in and around the Washington Beltway for decades.
So I went with Obama, because I want real change from the ground up. I want fresh faces, with fresh perspectives, and fresh solutions.
It doesn’t mean that Hillary isn’t qualified for the job, or that she would do a bad job — on the contrary. I think she would do a great job as CinC. I just think Obama would do better, that’s all.
As I’ve said here before, I could support Hillary as the Presidential nominee, but she is making it tougher with her desparate campaign actions. As time has gone on, and it was becoming clearer and clearer that she wasn’t going to make it, she started getting more and more desparate and out of control.
It is obvious she isn’t a gracious loser, and she really isn’t used to it.
I must be “on the pipe” because I do see the possibility of Hillary being on a “unity ticket”. Remember, Johnson wasn’t too happy about being second bannana to Kennedy, but he was foisted on to the ticket for exactly the same reasons she might end up as Obama’s running mate.
I would rather Hillary stand down on June 3rd and accept the fact that Obama is going to be the next president — if she starts working to heal the rip in the party fabric and actively campaign for Obama to win in November. I think Obama deserves the right to pick a running mate of his own choosing, such as Webb or someone else who can pull in votes.
But if Hillary is foisted on the ticket as a “unity” ticket, then I will still work to support it.
The important thing is that we win in November against John McBush. I am NOT going to like another four years of war, conservative destruction, and the guarantee of a NeoConservative Supreme Court for the next generation or two.
That is not an option.
As far as Hillary being appointed to the Supreme Court?
This was brought up on Rachael Maddow the other day, and shot down in the same show for very good reason.
Imagine the number of people out there who would oppose Hillary in the White House for four to eight years. Then imagine what those people would do if she were appointed to the Supreme Court for life. It would be one of the biggest gifts you could give the McCain campaign.
I think that the best place for Hillary is in the Senate — as Majority Leader. In the proper hands, the position of Majority Leader can be even more influential than the presidency. She could shape and mold legislation the way SHE wants it to be.
Here is the thing: losing the nomination or even the general election doesn’t put you into political Siberia. Just the opposite. It actually enhances your political worth. Look at Teddy Kennedy. His stature grew after his defeat. He didn’t run for Majority Leader, because at the time we already had a powerful Majority Leader.
But right now, with Harry Milquetoast Reid, things are ripe for a change. A strong personality like Hillary Clinton could transform Congress into a bright shining light instead of the dismal organ it has become.
Putting her somewhere would help, but I’m not sure it’s necessary. I think how she is treated: especially by Barack supporters from now on, is crucial. Barack himself is doing a pretty good job. No matter how wrong, or how right… Barack supporters aren’t the only ones who feel wronged, or have been offended. Saying you don’t give a shit (no one being pointed at here specifically) is your choice, but it may just be one further nail in the coffin of Dem 08.
Let’s just stop here for a moment. Treated how? It isn’t as if people just started coming down on her for no reason. Many of the people who are speaking out against her were Hillary supporters originally. They started speaking out against her because she started her “kitchen sink strategy”.
It isn’t so much that she’s run a campaign on contradictions — most candidates do — but she crossed an invisible line on a couple of occasions that she really shouldn’t have.
I don’t care who the opposing member of your party is, you don’t run on the idea that the opposing PARTY candidate is better qualified than the member of your own party. That gives a license to your supporters that if you lose the primary, it is alright for them to cross the aisle and vote for the member of the opposite party.
It is political heresy.
As time has gone on, and it is more than obvious to anyone with a grasp of basic math, that it is virtually impossible for Hillary to win the nomination, she has deliberately ratcheted up her attacks on Obama, not John McCain. McCain is pretty much an afterthought in her campaign.
On the other hand, Obama is leaving Hillary alone. He’s moved on to start the general election campaign. Sure, his nomination isn’t yet secured, but barring assassination, a sex scandal, or a freak accident involving rodeo clowns and bulls with distemper, he is going to be the party’s choice — even with the seating of the Florida and Michigan delegates.
Hillary needs to stop her threats to drag this thing out until September. She needs to quit acting like people are picking on her because she is a woman — they’re not. They are speaking out because of how she is acting — like someone who can’t accept the fact that while it was close, she didn’t have enough to win.
Obama ran the better campaign. Of the three campaigns going right now, Obama’s is the tightest run — indicative on how he will govern.
What is NOT being pointed out in the Corporate Media is the people that Obama is surrounding himself with: mostly women.
Maybe if Hillary stopped trying to break down Obama this late in the game, those people who appear to be “treating her bad” might let up on her.
I don’t hate Hillary, I just hate what she is doing.
Therein lies the difference.
But let’s talk about how supporters of one candidate “treat” the other candidate.
Contrary to the Geraldine Ferraros out there who find some kind of “sexist” or misogynist plot against Hillary — there isn’t. But supporters of Hillary who actually come out to say that Obama CAN’T be elected because he is black, is a lot more overt and provable — because they don’t mince words about it.
Besides, if someone is acting like a BITCH, when did it become a bad thing to point it out? People are criticizing her behavior. If you catch her in a lie or exaggeration, are we not supposed to point it out? I would expect someone to point out the same in Obama as well.
Yes, Obama has misspoke. Some of his positions have morphed, or have been tempered as he goes on. An example of that is his meeting with leaders of Iran, and comparing that to Kennedy meeting with Kruchev. As it was pointed out somewhere that Kennedy’s meeting with Kruchev was not only ill-advised by his advisors, when Kennedy actually did meet he regretted it because they tore him up due to his inexperience. Obama has since toned it down a bit by saying he would meet only if there were certain conditions in place. But unlike McCain and Bush, he would not rule out meeting with the leaders of Iran, or having talks at some level of the government.
This shows that Obama can adapt, without really changing his core positions. Unlike Bush, he listens to the people around him and his opponents.
That about sums it up, David. I’m glad to see you’ve eased up on the concern and put things in perspective.
I haven’t changed anything that I haven’t already been saying for months, Ron.
We all have our first choice ideas of who we want as the nominee. As I have been saying, I originally wanted Edwards. When he dropped out, I was upset — not at Edwards, but at the Corporate Media who refused to cover him unless he lit his hair on fire. When he dropped out, I latched onto Obama.
I realize that people have the same loyalty to Hillary as I would to Obama. But only one person can win, and everyone else becomes an “also ran”.
Obama ran the better campaign, and at the end he will have the most delegates — by following the rules set out ahead of time and agreed to by everyone. You cannot change the rules in the middle of the game simply because you are behind. It doesn’t work like that — or it shouldn’t work like that. If the role were reversed, and it was Hillary ahead, and Obama behind, do you think Hillary would still be calling for Florida and Michigan to be counted?
Be honest now. I am thinking she would be on every cable news show telling us that “rules are rules”, and “shame on you Barack Obama for trying to pull a fast one”.
Personally, I would rather that BOTH Democrats start focusing on John McCain. McCain makes Bush look like a rational man. The reality is, there are a lot of things about McCain that should scare the hell out of you. Not the least of which, the man is wholly propped up by lobbyists. He has no independent thought of his own that hasn’t been told to him. His entire campaign so far has been run by lobbyists. He just gets on his “Straight-talkin’ Maverick Express” bus and goes from town to town mouthing what he has been told to say.
If the Corporate Media totally ignored Edwards, they only overlook McCain’s Senior Moments. The crap that falls out of his neck each time he talks should have been picked up and ran with so hard — but nobody talks about it, and few even realize he’s said or done something.
Take Hagee and Parsley. These weren’t two unknowns. There is audio and video going way back, and a lot of it is all over the Internet. Progressives have been talking about the two of them for years. The Hagee comment about Hitler sending the Jews to the Promised Land was written about in the Huffingtoon Post almost two years ago. For John McCain to say that he didn’t know about any of this is either being totally dishonest, or he is too disconnected from his campaign to have even bothered to check. Either way, it speaks volumes about his candidacy.
Well, i have to get back to work on this site. I am doing some updating.
David, you must have missed my point. It doesn’t matter if you think; or anyone thinks, such emotions have no reason, rationale or even 180 degrees out of sync with reality. I’m not talking about what “is,” I speaking to feelings and perceptions on both sides. Ignoring such things, or treating them unworthy of attention, may seem just… but that’s heading down an avenue that’s going away from winning an election, IMO.
Actually in many cases: not all, I think this is exactly what has happened… unless “reason” is defined as revising what someone has said so into what wasn’t said as to get the upper hand politically.
Since I have limited computer time, and have already botched one comment due to that, I’ll try to concentrate most of my comments regarding this into one.
Feelings? Emotions?
I am not speaking from either. I am speaking only from cold hard facts and observations here Ken. I think you are seeing hate where none really exists. Yes, there are people getting more and more frustrated over all of this.
Hillary supporters are frustrated because Hillary is somehow being “cheated” out of something they feel she is entitled to. They feel that she has “paid her dues” and she has earned the nomination.
This
uppityelitist black man comes out of political nowhere and deprived her of her rightful victory.Obama supporters are frustrated because their candidate has been playing by the agreed-upon rules, he has an insurmountable lead in the number of delegates, and it has been mathematically obvious for the past three months that there was no way his opponent could ever catch up and overtake him.
Yet she refuses to concede, instead wants to re-write the rules under the guise of allowing the voters of Florida and Michigan to “have their votes count” (whick is code for Hillary to unfairly gain delegates in two states where she technically ran unopposed)
These aren’t so much feelings and emotions on the part of the Obama supporters, but they are the feelings and emotions on the part of the Clinton supporters.
The FACTS are, Obama’s campaign was more organized than Clinton’s. They ran their campaign by the rules agreed upon by ALL of the candidates. They designed their strategy based upon those rules. Had there been different rules in place, they would have had a different strategy, but the results probably would have been the same.
The Clinton Era is coming to an end, just as the Kennedy/Johnson Era, the Humphrey/Stevenson Era before that, and the Roosevelt/Truman Era before that. It is just the way it goes.
The Clintonistas are the ones working on emotions here. They are nostalgic for a return of prosperity of the 1990s, and Clinton is the known commodity. They see Obama as the man standing in their way.
There is also the contingency of women who have been pinning for a very long time to have a “woman president”, and Hillary is their “only” chance. Dammit! They’ve been waiting so long that it is THEIR turn! Washington’s governor, Christine Gregoire, has been getting hate mail from women all over the stste because she decided to endorse Obama. These women are telling her that she should have followed her vagina, and that she stuck a thumb into the eye of every woman who voted for her.
Are there emotional feelings from Obama supporters? Of course there are. But you have to consider why the sense of frustration is coming from the Obama supporters.
We hear the news that six out of ten Hillary supporters in one poll say that they won’t vote for Obama. Some will stay home, and others will actually cross the line and vote for McCain. Some are against Obama ONLY because he is a black man.
We hear Clinton in her more desparate moments claim that Obama won’t get elected because he is black. Or comes out with veiled references to the possibility of Obama being assassinated. We hear Clinton wanting to change the rules to gain delegates in two states where she ran unopposed because she wants to be “fair”. We hear her claim that McCain is more qualified to be president than Obama. We hear Hillary’s threat to take the fight all the way to the convention, KNOWING that it would be a sure defeat for democrats in November.
We hear her claim that the Democratic Primary season in 1968 lasted into June without a clear winner. (H. H. Humphrey got that nomination without ever winning a primary. And he lost the election to Nixon.)
She claims that Bill’s primary season lasted into June without a nominee also, but he only won the general election because 20 percent of the Republican vote was split to Ross Perot.
Meanwhile, we have Obama, publically praising Hillary for having run a ‘vigorous campaign’, but not focusing on her any more. Instead, he is doing exactly what BOTH of them should have been doing back in March: going after McCain. If there was still a contest between them, the voters could have decided by just watching how each of them handled McCain.
Instead, Hillary was busy throwing kitchen sinks at Obama, and each time she did, she lost and he gained.
While Obama chose to run a Primary election, Hillary chose to run a General Election strategy against the Democrat. This is political heresy, and THIS is why the Obama supporters (and former Clinton supporters) are coming down on her.
Note that I am not using MY “feelings” or “emotions” describing any of this.
Here is a question for you:
When the Democrats lose in November because Hillary chose to have a shoot out at the convention, who are you going to blame?
David…
You say it isn’t “feelings” or “emotions,” but please look carefully at what I stated. Did I, once again, say you specifically? This keeps happening. What you claim you are doing is what I am attempting to do. How much we are actually succeeding, in the long run, only we can decide… or finally come to understand.
Yes and words like “uppity” and “feeling entitled” are tossed at Hillary too. I wish both sides would stop: I don’t agree with either. Unless you can find Hillary calling Barack and uppity n…
Ken
Didn’t get to read it all (closing time again). But as for the end. Who will I blame? Depends upon what happens after the convention. But I do find it annoying that Barack supporters are all ready to blame Hillary long before that date. If they’re so positive, why don’t they just give the hell up now? Me? I’m not positive: overly negative really, concerning this. The amount of time we still have is damn near a century in political time. Almost everyone was sure Carter was going to lose to that “actor.” Lots of examples to pull out to make my case here.
No, you didn’t, but the inference is there, because what I am saying about all of this is really no different than most people are saying — Hillary’s campaign has Jumped The Shark.
I am only pointing out WHY there is a growing resentment going on against Hillary Clinton and to some extent, her supporters.
Hillary went into this knowing that roughly half of the people in this country have a negative view of her. Most of them are Republicans who have a white-hot hate for her, but there are a number of Democrats who dislike and/or distrust her also.
So is it really surprising that there are people who have low opinions of her right now, given her recent comments and threats?
If she were to concede today, and start working towards supporting Obama in the Fall, her political stock would go back up again rapidly. All would be forgiven and forgotten.
The Florida and Michigan issue is going to be resolved — with penalties, and it isn’t going to help Hillary at all. Most of the undeclared “super delegates” have privately indicated that Obama is going to get their support — they just want there to be no bloodletting.
You said it all depends on how Hillary is treated before she concedes. I contend she would get a standing ovation with several curtain calls the moment she does. But her exit has to be timely. It cannot drag out until the convention, or all bets are off — the Democrats will lose.
Hillary has probably the most important role in this election, and that is the healing process. She has the responsibility to concede graciously and then work hard to heal the riff she created.
It isn’t going to be easy, she has said some very damaging things during her campaign. She has purposely planted seeds of doubt into the election, and she has come out to indirectly endorse John McCain on several occasions. This is going to be hard for her to take all of that back.
You don’t get it, do you? If this drags out to the convention, then it doesn’t matter who ends up as the nominee. The election will be over before it stated. Historically, contests that go into the convention without a clear nominee lose the general election. The reason is because there is a split in the party that will take time to pull together and heal. Even right now, it might be too late, given the rip that has been made.
We are giving John McCain — the man who ordinarily wouldn’t have a fart’s chance in a hurricane — almost six months head start on the general election and all of the ammunition he needs to defeat us.
And what is causing all of this? We have a presumptive nominee already, who followed the rules and who will have more than the required 2025 delegates needed on June 3rd.
Hillary, by every indication she is giving, will not accept that number any longer, and she will probably not accept the ruling of the DNC after their May 31st rules meeting.
In other words, it appears that she intends to sabatage the Democratic chances of winning in November if she chooses to take this to the Convention floor. Either that, or she is dillusional in thinking that she can win if only she were the nominee.
I have also heard the rumors about Hillary possibly running as an Independent. Again, that would just mean four more years of McSame, or Bush’s third term. But it would also be the end of the Clintons politically.
I don’t know how to say this any plainer: If you want John McCain to win in November, keep Hillary on her current path to destruction. If you want to win in November, get her to drop out right after June 3rd.
Those are the only two possible scenarios.